Chew the Fat

Man I don't know!
There is this idea, that isn’t really that well thought out, that hell is the place where God isn't. But then the same people hold the idea that God is omni-present….hmmmm not really possible.

Some believe that hell isn’t in fact this place of weeping and gnashing of teeth for eternity this is a place designed for the angels until judgement. Once judgement is complete people won’t go to eternal hell but will be cast in to the lake, where basically those who have been judged cease to exist.

It is very far fetched to me and points to some very real problems in Christianity attempting to project a merciful God, this and the mass ‘God ordained’ genocides of the Old Testament.

Hey Chris,

I got this from Wiki:

"Hell, as it exists in the Western popular imagination, has its origins in Hellenized Christianity, particularly taken from adaptation of the Hellenistic afterlife known as Tartarus. Judaism, at least initially, believed in Sheol, a shadowy existence to which all were sent indiscriminately. Sheol may have been little more than a poetic metaphor for death, not really an afterlife at all: see for example Sirach. However, by the third to second century B.C. the idea had grown to encompass a far more complex concept.

The Hebrew Sheol was translated in the Septuagint as 'Hades', the name for the underworld in Greek mythology and is still considered to be distinct from "Hell" by Eastern Orthodox Christians. The Lake of Fire and realm of Eternal Punishment in Hellenistic mythology was in fact Tartarus. Hades was not Hell in Hellenistic mythology, but was rather a form of limbo where the dead went to be judged. The New Testament uses this word, but it also uses the word 'Gehenna', from the valley of Ge-Hinnom, a valley near Jerusalem originally used as a location in which human sacrifices were offered to an idol called "Molech" (or Moloch).

2 Kings 23.10 (on King Josiah's reform):

And he defiled the Tophet, which is in the valley of Ben-hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire lmlk.

Jeremiah 32.35:

And they built the high places of the Ba‘al, which are in the valley of Ben-hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire lmlk; which I did not command them, nor did it come into my mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

It was later used as a landfill in order to emphasize the disgusting nature of its original use. Hebrew landfills were very unsanitary and unpleasant when compared to modern landfills; these places were filled with rotting garbage and the Hebrews would periodically burn them down. However, by that point they were generally so large that they would burn for weeks or even months. In other words they were fiery mountains of garbage. The early Christian teaching was that the damned would be burnt in the valley just as the garbage was. (It is ironic to note that the valley of Ge-Hinnom is today, far from being a garbage dump, a public park.) It is argued by theologians opposed to hell but desirous to defend the Bible as a source, that a reference to a place on Earth where rubbish was burnt can not refer to any conscious after-death state."

That’s really interesting. I had known about Sheol as some sort of purgatory before judgement and then hell, but the garbage this was fascinating. The whole idea of an after life came from the Persian religion Zoroastrianism. Before the Hebrews were allowed to go back to their home land from Babylon, there was only thought on the eternity of God not mankind. When the Jews arrived back in Palestine a huge effort was made to secure and document their culture and traditions, that’s what Nehemiah and his attempts to build the gates of Jerusalem is all about. The Persians were supportive of the Hebrews in settling back in their homeland and consequently had a large impact on the Hebrew culture. The prolific writing of the Persians was very attractive to the Hebrews and influenced them in trying to record all of the traditions that had been passed down over the centuries. Oral traditions and ancient writings were organised and made into records of the people. This is why books such as Isaiah have many authors and change in tone and perceptions dramatically throughout the book. Consequently many aspects of the Persian religion, Zoroastrianism, was morphed into Judaism. –very similar to the Greek influence on Judaism with Hellenism.

There are noticeable differences between Judaism before the exile to Babylon (pre-exilic) and after (second temple Judaism)

The relevant issues of Zoroastrianism are:

1. Zoroastrians believe in one universal God, Ahura Mazda, who is the power of truth, light and all that is good. Although Ahura Mazda is one God, he has “six divine attributes (which) were often envisioned as separate entities, perhaps in the form of archangels”

2. There is constant battle between the powers of good and evil. Evil is personified in Ahirman. “The evil forces were regarded as anger, envy, lies, and environmental pollution, etc.”

3. The soul is the scene of the battle between the forces of good and evil. Ultimately the individual has the freedom to choose how they will lead their life.

4. The kingdom of God or chosen government is another Zoroastrian concept “wherein all the virtuous men and women reside freely and choose leaders for their righteousness, and the oppressed will be rehabilitated.”

5. The soul is Immortal. Shortly after death each soul shall be judged for its deeds of the past on the bridge of judgment. “…judged by three angels (Mithra, Rashn, Sraosha), who were to differentiate them and determine the eternal dwellings of the two groups in heaven or hell”. Those who pass over the bridge shall spend eternity in paradise. Those who do not make it across the bridge spend eternity in a place called “the worst existence” a foul smelling hell like location.

6. Resurrection of the dead. There is a Zoroastrian belief that the soul rises from the body and stays in the world for three days then goes to the spirit world. “ Later Zoroastrianism also predicts a collective resurrection (Rastakhiz) when all the dead will rise”.

While the Jews were attempting to consolidate the Hebrew religion, Zoroastrianism seems to have had a considerable influence in the beginning stages of second temple Judaism, as none of these elements were present in Hebrew religion before the Exile. “Zoroastrianism offered a world view that both explained and mollified tragedies such as Exile.”


Specific areas of change which appear to have occurred were:

1. In pre-exilic writings, demons “scarcely rose above the animalistic level and never implied strong resistance to Yahweh” There is also very little pre-exilic writings about demons. Post-exilic writings describe Demons as organized and with a leader (commonly known as Satan). The demons’ organization is demonstrated in the following passage: “I saw the key holders and guards of the gates of hell standing, like great serpents, and their faces like extinguished lamps, and their eyes of fire, their sharp teeth,” (2 Enoch 42:1).

2. Pre-exilic writing has angels as divine messengers without names “The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening…” (Genesis 19:1). Post-exilic writing however, arranges the angels in a hierarchal order with names, character traits and responsibilities: “And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third who is set over all the powers is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’” (Enoch 40: 9). There were seven Archangels: Raphael, Uriel, Michael, Raguel, Saraqiel, Gabriel, and Remiel. The angelic hierarchy may also be attributed to Hellenistic influence because of the hierarchical order of the Greek Gods. This Dualistic view in which all good and right comes from Yahweh, while all evil arises from a powerful principle of evil helps to explain tragedies such as the Exile.

3. Another area of change was philosophies and ideas on the afterlife. Traditional Jewish belief was that the dead went down to Sheol, a dull and desolate place of forgetfulness. “But little do they know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of the grave (Sheol)” (Proverbs 9:18). Notions of resurrection, judgment, heaven and hell replaced this idea of a shadowy underworld. The concept of resurrection wasn’t necessarily new to the Jews as it was embedded in early Hebrew Scriptures such as Deuteronomy and Exodus. However, it became more vivid in postexilic writings. “For then it will be necessary to show to the living that the dead have come to life again, and that those who had departed have returned (again).” (2 Baruch 50:4).

4. God’s Judgment and punishment in pre-exilic writing appears to be associated with land, plagues and invasions being manifestations of the wrath of God. Therefore, God’s Judgment is usually upon the Hebrew people as a whole not individuals. “When I (Yahweh) shut the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people…” (2 Chronicles 7:13). In addition, there seems to be no pre-exilic scripture that illustrates Judgment of the dead. Post-exilic writings however, have a vastly different view of judgment. Individual actions in life are judged after death. Based on their life choices, souls are sent either to heaven or hell for eternity. “The lord almighty will take vengeance of them in the Day of Judgment, to put fire and worms in their flesh; and they shall weep and feel their pain forever.” (Judith 16:17)

5. Concepts of eternity were around in pre-exilic scriptures but these had to do with the eternity of Yahweh not individuals “…the Lord is the Rock eternal” (Isaiah 26:4). This differs from post-exilic writing where individuals can have eternal life “ And the righteous shall be in the light of the sun, and the elect in the light of eternal life: The days of there life shall be unending, and the days of the holy without number. (1 Enoch 58:3)

Bro,

Those belief systems of Zoroastrianism describe Christianity in a nutshell.

I'm beginning to wonder if Christianity is a mesh of zoroastrianism and paganism?

This is getting really fascinating :)

Hey Frank, Great to see you here and thanks for your comments!

The hell thing is certainly a conundrum. Hell either exists or it doesn’t. Ones thoughts on scripture and ideologies on the nature and character of God will raise very different perspectives on hell.

I don’t think it is an issue that can be left alone if someone is a Christian. This is because so much Modern Christianity is based upon someone becoming a Christian out of fear of hell. Evangelism has been based on rescuing people from judgment and the fiery gates.

The issue of an after life I don’t think subsides in the New Testament; it is certainly a huge issue in the church today.